Podcast & Transcription: Learning to Let Go and Grow

family law podcast

These days, Heather Keith, founder of Keith Family Law, has a thriving practice with a growing support team. But her leap from solo to CEO wasn’t always a smooth transition.

Heather shares the biggest fear she had to overcome when building the business beyond herself, how the solution she came up with allows the firm to run without her involvement in day-to-day details, and what she does with her time and energy instead.

We also delve into…

  • Her #1 warning to up-and-coming business owners
  • Why many attorneys are scared to talk about money – and how it can sabotage your business
  • A hobby that helps her stay balanced in her life – but also benefits her career in unexpected ways
  • How saying no to certain clients can actually grow your business even faster
  • And more

Listen now or read the full transcript below:

Davina Frederick: You’re listening to the solo to CEO podcast with Davina Frederick. Hello and welcome to the solo-to-CEO podcast where we provide a mix of powerful thought for booking and practical information to assist you in your transformation from solo-to-CEO of a high impact, high revenue generating business. I’m your host Davina Frederick and I’m here with Heather. He attorney and CEO of Keith Family Law. Keith Kamily Law provides divorce litigation mediation and collaborative divorce services for clients throughout New Jersey. Welcome, Heather. I’m so pleased you’re here today on this solo CEO podcast.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Hi there, Davina. I’m pleased to be here. Delighted.

Davina Frederick: So I said that you provide divorce litigation mediation and collaborative divorce services for clients throughout New Jersey. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, what specifically that means and, um, more about your firm and how you serve your clients?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Sure. So, I’m a family law firm here in New Jersey and we do litigation, of course, which means in court for those who don’t know what litigation means. (We’ve found that some people don’t know what really what that means or appreciate it.)

So do alternative dispute resolution, which is a family of out-of-court method of settling a family law dispute and divorces, including mediation and mediation support. So sometimes I will serve as a mediator and sometimes I will be the review attorney or the supporting attorney in a mediation setting. Um, but my favorite way to solve cases like a criminal case, right, to solve divorce cases through the collaborative process. So that is where the collaboratively trained attorneys work with each other and with the clients, oftentimes with mental health neutrals and financial neutrals to row in the same direction, to transition a family from a being an intact family, to being a family of two separate houses, oftentimes. 

Davina Frederick:  Tell me how did you get started and interested in practicing law to begin with? How long have you been practicing?

Heather Keith, Esq.: I’ve been practicing for about 12 years now. I graduated from law school in ‘07.

Davina Frederick: Oh, so you and I graduated from law school, same year. That was a great year. And did you open your firm a right, right out of law school or did you, what did you do for that?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Oh dear. No, after I passed it, well I didn’t pass the bar exam, but the first thing I did was after graduation, of course, was study for the bar exam and take that. Then I did a clerkship at the New Jersey Superior Court. My judge was half of her term was in civil in a civil part and half of her term was in the family part and the second half of her term is when I started looking for my job. Then from there, I went into a boutique family law firm in a sort of northern New Jersey where I was, where I practiced exclusively family law for a handful of years.

Davina Frederick: Was that something that you had in mind that you wanted to do from the beginning? Was practice family law or was it or did you, you know, I always find it interesting when I talk to the attorneys to find out if they wound up practicing because you know, they interned and, and, and their sort of, their career bled been to a practice area or if they started out with a practice area in mind.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yeah, that’s a great question. I was published in the circuit review, Law Journal and on a topic that’s completely not related to family law was in fact in environmental law at the time that I was in law school, I had no idea where I was going to come out the other side. I just knew that my motivation was in helping people solve their problems in a way that people seem to not be able. You know, some people are frightened to go to court or I had been to court several times on my own, you know, traffic core, this and that, and it didn’t really phase me too much. And I thought to myself, well, if I have this ability, then why would I not share that with other people? And so I took the l set and I got into law school.

And since this is later in life, by the way, I was in my thirties, by the time I got into law school, when I was there, I had no idea what to expect or, you know, where to go from here. You know, I w did not grow up in New Jersey. I don’t have any legal, you know, experience in my family. I’m the first one who went on to, you know, higher education. So it just, by a series of circumstances, um, I ended up into family law. The thing that I think that really sealed the deal for me was, um, you know, you always have something in the back of your mind that sticks with you, maybe a formative experience. Um, or something that really drives you. And for me now, my parents were divorced and I was 12, and it that really had a big impact on me and they did the very best that they could.

And they did some, I mean, this is early in the 80s, and not too many people, at least where I was living were getting divorced and it just made a very big impact on me. I watched my parents, you know, independently struggle with, you know, the separation and you know, the re-marriages and so forth. It just really stuck with me and I thought, well, if this is something that I can do to make future peoples’ experiences better, I’m more healthy if I can pass on some of the things that my parents were able to do and help people avoid some of the things that my parents really were not necessarily able to avoid. And also to keep children right in the, in the forefront of the experience. Because clearly, this isn’t anything that the children asked for to begin with them talking about divorce.

And I thought, well, if there’s some way that I can, can really lend my experiences and, and make this into a, a better experience for people. And then that’s really what I would like to do at this point. So when, when came some opportunities came up in family law, you know, I was accepted into the clinic where at my law school, the family law clinic and I appeared before a judge is a student and that really had an impact on me. I thought, well, Geez, that was successful. So let’s see how, let’s see how we can really play this out. So I really didn’t have too much of a fear of being in the courtroom, but, but there were some things sort of in the back of my mind that there was more, there’s more to it than going then than appearing. Appearing in court is an important thing to be able to do.

But in the bigger picture, my, my real concern was, was helping families get from point a to point B without scorching the earth, without harming relationships, teaching people to communicate with each other. One thing once again, and maybe restoring just a little bit of trust so that they can move forward in their future lives. Because these are families who will have to, they’ll be at graduations, they’re going to be at birthday parties, they’re going to be at weddings and family, you know, big family events in the future. And would they like to be able to do this in an, in an impact way and as healthy as way as possible? That was really my goal. It wasn’t really for me about law, law, law, it was really more about problem-solving for me. That’s what drew me into family law and that’s what keeps me in family law and that the things that I see are really, are really rewarding.

Davina Frederick: Yeah. And that’s what led you then to collaborative law, correct?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Davina Frederick: Okay. And so about how long did you, how long did you practice before you sort of discovered and, and immerse yourself in, in the collaborative law model?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Right. So I had been practicing, we’ll say traditional family law/litigation for about three and a half years. Long enough to sort of look around and you know, I was involved in bar events and ends of court and so forth and, and it was, it was just really a good amount of time for me to see what’s possible using that method. But it’s also possible to see some of the destruction that can happen using that method. And there isn’t anybody in the world no matter how well-intentioned they are, who can sit in a black robe and make a decision for your family that’s any better than you could make for your own family. If you could simply set aside some of the emotional things and, and have, have maybe somebody help you focus on the things that are truly important.

Heather Keith, Esq.: So yes, when, when the collaborative thing came up for me, it really wasn’t an option where I was practicing at the time. So if I wanted to be involved in collaborative practice or lean heavily into mediation and so forth all these alternative dispute resolution models, I was not going to be able to do that where I, where I found myself. So that’s one of the things that really motivated me too. When I did go out of my own, I thought, well now this is something I really have to look into because it, it’s really speaking to me here and I think this is really worth looking into and that’s why I did that.

Davina Frederick: So tell me about going out on your own. What were the factors into that when you do this and what factors into that decision?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Well, I’m going out on my own was almost an accident. I’ve left the environment where I had been practicing. I just had so many questions in my mind that I just really wanted to answer and I wasn’t really even sure if I was going to practice at all. But then I thought to myself, well, Geez, you know, you work so hard to get into law school and you were so hard while you were there and you’re really were very successful and really enjoyed some academic success and you came out and when you were very well supported by people who are helping you in your career, are you really gonna throw that over your shoulder to do  some sort of undefined thing in the future? And I said to myself, no, I’m really can’t do that. I have so many questions and I just really want to answer those questions.

And so I took a few weeks off after I left my first situation. And then, you know, the funniest story is that I don’t know if I really would have opened my own firm, but for the fact that to get malpractice insurance, you have to fill out this 12-page application and then asks, it essentially provides a roadmap for how to open your firm. So do you have an I all to trust account? Do you have a business account? Oh dear. No, I better go down to the bank and OpenWorld. Okay, got that. Okay. Do you have, do you want to register under your social security number? No, I sure don’t. So I better get a tax ID number. Well, what are you going to call yourself? Oh, well, let’s see. Keith law firm is, that sounds broad. Okay. Let’s think big. You know. Okay, now I’m going to need a website. And before you knew it they put together and I just, I printed up some business cards and off I went, you know? And, and what I found was that the people who had, who had been watching me while I was you know, first out practicing supported me unconditionally. Oh, we’re so, we’re so proud of you. You’re really out on your own, you’re really doing it. Oh, and I heard all kinds of stories. Well, this is how I started and Oh, you’re in the building that I started. Oh, this, this is great. Here, let me throw you some clients. And do you want to do these different areas of law? And at first it wasn’t about family and I was doing a variety of different things, but quickly it really narrowed back down to the family arena. And that’s, that’s I, I didn’t, I couldn’t stay home because you don’t really want family, lot of people necessarily coming to your house.

So even just to get out in the world, I just, I rented a room and one of those sort of things you know, executive suite kind of places. And so I would have a place to receive all of my, this, you know, the things that you receive when you’re an attorney. And I justwent to bar functions and I just kinda put it out there and I just started passing out cards and one thing led to another and I got a client and then I got another client, I got a few more clients. And before you knew it I was like, wow, I feel like this might fly. This is really crazy.

Davina Frederick: You said at one point you weren’t even sure you were going to practice at all. Was that, what were you thinking, you know, because you went to, I’m assuming you went to law school with the intention of practicing and becoming a lawyer and I asked this because I can relate to this because I have, you know, I have these, the nature of what I do now is different. I don’t practice law day to today. I am still an active attorney, but I do not practice law day today. And so I’m curious, you have this moment where you thought, hmm, you know, I’ve put all this work into this, but I might not actually practice law.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Well, remember this is the thing – I’m halfway through my life at this point. I’m, I’m in my mid-thirties, I’m creeping up on 40 years old and I had done several things in the past before I even went to law school. So my mind was a little bit open on that in that regard. So in other words, I hadn’t come straight from undergraduate and then straight to law school and I was basically all I knew and I felt like it didn’t really have a choice when I came out. I thought, well, you know, Gisa I do have other choices. I, you know, at the, at the point I had overworked myself and I really wasn’t in a great emotional place and so I feel like that’s one of the things that led me to have that thought that I, that I feel I felt disconnected. So I felt like maybe, you know, that, you know, no matter how hard I had worked, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. I’m just, I’m going to do something different now. 

Davina Frederick: I understand you are an accomplished musician.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yeah. I graduated from Oberlin College and I was originally admitted to the conservatory. And so I, as a voice major, singing and one of my original dreams was to become a choral conductor. So it’s something that’s really never left me. I don’t know if that’s really something that you can truly do as a profession without really throwing yourself into it. So, yeah. But I do have music in my life all the time. It’s, it’s very important to me. I still perform. I still sing, I have a group, I have a madrigal group that I perform with and it’s always part of keeping me balanced. 

Davina Frederick: So have you ever wondered how, and this is kind of an off the wall question, but have you ever wondered how music informs your life as a lawyer and as a business owner in your, your day to day life?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yeah, great question. So a couple of things. Music and math are closely related. And I find that I’m having, I’m practicing like a classical musician, so I read music and a lot of that has the, so there’s a lot of logic that goes into the type of music that I do. And then in addition to that, if something you’re performing, you’re performing so it’s in real-time, in real life, real things happen in your, you are maybe on a stage or before a group of people. And if something goes wrong, then you better know what to do right away in that moment, which is strikingly similar to arguing emotion.

Davina Frederick: You have the road map.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yeah. You have the roadmap and you have a general idea of what’s gonna happen. But if something else does happen, then you need to be able to improvise. So it’s a very experiential thing. Music is, it’s in, it’s in real-time. And I find that performing law can be very similar when you’re on trial, when you’re arguing emotion, when you’re, even when you’re doing a deposition, it’s a very experiential thing is something that you’re doing in the moment. You prepare for it, but at that moment you’re performing. So they’re very similar. They’re very similar.

Davina Frederick: Right. Right. Cause I always think that whatever we, like you, I did not graduate from law school till I was, I went in my late thirties to law school. So it was a second career for me. And I always say we carry with us whatever it is that we, you know, obviously whatever it is that we’ve learned, the skills we’ve learned before and whatever we did in life before we carry through with us to the other things we do in our lives. And it’s always interesting to see how we weave together life and career and how it works to our advantage. You know, over time and helps us to create the people that we become and how it shapes our, our business. Right. With your business, now I want to talk about your business and your solo-to-CEO Journey because yeah. And your business now has grown. You have one other attorney working with you now or?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yep, I got it. I have an attorney, I have an office administrator, I have a receptionist person. I have a, a paralegal and a marketing specialist as well. So I have a lot of people now.

Davina Frederick: So what was that like for you making that when you kind of had that, where you treat and made that sort of, transition from solo too. Do you know the moment when you kind of felt like, okay, I really shifted from being a, well, we call it true solo, that feeling to be, oh my goodness, I actually have a firm year. I actually have, you know, a business that is separate from me, a business entity that is separate from me and a lot of people relying on this business. Do you know that moment?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yeah. Well first of all, the feeling is kind of like jumping off of a cliff.

Davina Frederick: It’s scary.

Heather Keith Esq.: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s definitely, it’s exhilarating. It’s, it is scary for sure. But in the same way that it would be scary if you were skydiving cause you know, nobody’s gonna die. So we know that. So but it was a huge transition to pull a, to pull myself out of the practice and make a business out of it was one of the most Herculean things I think I’ve probably ever done. It was very frightening because I thought that, well, if, if, if this, this business is not me, then first of all, like, who am I? What do, what does that mean for me? Like, am I not, am I worthless? Am I, am I replaceable? What am I, so you come to terms with that. And then, but then that quickly gave way to the fun, right, of setting up a business where that will run without me.

Heather Keith, Esq.: At first, that was a very threatening thing. And now I, I’m, it didn’t take long for me to figure out like, well, hey, if this place can run without me for a certain period of time, I could go home for a week to see my mother could, I could go on vacation, I can, you know, I can pick up my son from daycare without worrying about it. The rewards came flooding right away. Yeah, the rewards came right away. But yes, there is a huge responsibility and it was terrifying. That was the scary part about it. I have to say, if I can put my finger on it would be payroll in a word. So like you say, there are people depending now on me and I’m making a promise to them. In some ways to the best of my ability, like it took a little while. It took a while to get used to the idea of people hanging their futures in their, and their livelihoods on my business venture. So that was, it was kind of a, that that was just kind of a scary moment. But when you see it succeed and actually fly, you can’t, you can’t believe it. It’s just so bizarre. It was just so weird.

So I never, I never really considered, well, that’s another thing that I never really considered. What was creating a business out of my practice because I had been practicing, right for so long. I’ve been practicing and practicing. I’m being a lawyer practicing this thing at expanding my practice areas in the, in the various family law areas. So I felt as though I was almost breaking something by going from a true solo because I’m the one who knows where the printer is, the one who knows, you know, where all the stamps are.

I’m the one, you know, I’m the one who has all this knowledge and externalizing all that knowledge, first of all into multiple people was a very strange experience. But when it was done and when we got, you know, and I’ll just say worried about systems, systems, systems, systems, this is the key to any success I think of probably any business but particularly in a, in a law firm, we have systems for everything. We write them down on, on sheets of paper, we call them flow sheets. So it’s, so we write down what we do, every little thing, everything from how do you receive a payment to, you know, how do you book, how do you book somebody for a consult? Every everything is, is systematized so that we can move people around. So I promoted, right my, my reception person who is trained in paralegal studies and I actually was able to promote her to a paralegal position and bring in a new receptionist person without, without rocking the boat. Because it was all, it had already been written down and systematized. And so the new person was able to step in and more importantly, this person was able to step out of that role and into a new role without bringing down with, you know, without, without bringing down the house. And that was really a great experience as well. So it’s been a lot of fun. It’s been a lot of fun setting up a business.

Davina Frederick: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of fun. And that’s again, probably something that you didn’t anticipate when you were, you’re thinking, I’m going to be a lawyer. You probably weren’t thinking in terms of, and even when you, like you said, you’re just, you, you, you sort of are an accidental business. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean really thinking about the challenge of morphing into a CEO. Yeah. Yeah. What that has brought into your life. Wow.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Completely. It’s a completely new role. It’s a completely different role and I really, I love it. I love being in business. I like, I like working in the business as well. I like serving clients, I like doing intakes and consults and things like that and you know, preparing for motion hearings and so forth. But I really am enjoying running, you know, being the, like you say, going from the transition from being the true solo to a CEO. I didn’t see that coming at all. And now that I’m here, it’s, it’s an, it’s been an amazing journey and it’s just going up from here. It’s very cool. It’s very

Davina Frederick: Right. So what, what advice would you have down, let your, you know, 10, 12 years down the road, what would you, what advice you have for those who are on the solo to CEO Journey behind you? Some of the things that looking back on your experience that you maybe would have done differently or, or that you would have done the same, but you know, you know, you want to throw up a flag warning or some of the best experiences you’ve had that you want to share.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Well, yeah, right. So, I guess what I would say is that whatever doubts you’re having, don’t, don’t have those doubts. They’re not productive. So the only regrets that I’ve got at this point and regret as a strong word really would be, I didn’t start earlier. I should have done my systems earlier. I should’ve thought about marketing earlier. And when I say marketing for me, there was, there was a big period of growth for me and even marketing at all marketing at all, like as, as a proposition was not okay for me psychologically. So I w although it was not hard for me to ask for help as a solo, cause obviously look at me, I need help, you know, I’m just starting out like, you know, everything I know nothing. And then when you make the transition into the CEO part of it, something in me was afraid to go to that next level.

Like asking for clients, I’m asking for money, I’m increasing my rates of valuing, valuing my work enough to take consistent retainers, refresh those retainers. Several client relationships when they, when they go bad because they do. Not all of them obviously, but some of them do. Choosing the correct of choosing the right clients to fill your house with is so, so important that you will never regret the client that you did not take and you will, you will cherish the clients that you, that you do take but on good terms. So if you did, that was one of really important less that I lesson that I learned fairly early on is that if there’s a client who is not a good fit for you and the way that you want to practice for, for whatever reason, if you can say no to that client, you are not saying no to business.

What you are saying no to is that experience meaning now you have the ability to take in a better experience. So for example, the client that’s not a great match for you. Like maybe this, this case really has legs and both of the parties are completely unreasonable and they can’t really pay your fees or, or, or they’re abusing your staff or whatever. Those cases will take over and, and really, they’ll take over your practice, especially when you’re first started, you know, starting out and in a firm like if you don’t have like 10 or 12 attorneys, these are the cases that will really wreak havoc on your, your home. This is your home, really. Your business that you spend so much time on it, you, you rely on it and you want it to be healthy. So one thing that I learned that was really important is saying, don’t be afraid to say no to a client.

Even if you feel like you need the money, because what it really does is it really opens your schedule, opens your resources for you to be able to say yes to the client that you actually want, who may be reasonable and who can pay their bills and who you know is going to work well with you and not abuse your staff. And imagine how that would be. So I would say never take a client from a place of fear. That would be, that would be a big piece of advice that I would give to people. And then in terms of marketing, just, you know, if you have to just, you know, plug your nose and jump in [inaudible] you gotta do it. It just, it has to be done. You know, the videos and the in the copy. And if you can’t do it, and that’s not a value judgment at all.

Cause I can’t, I mean, I, I’m trained as a lawyer now. I mean, I’m, I’m wrecked for marketing so I hired somebody else because my writing now is so technical that I was having problems voicing what I wanted to communicate to my ideal potential new client. So I have found an outside source who specializes in that marketing language. And then I trusted that person and I said, look, you know, I don’t, please don’t let me align at, at Unidesk you’re going to use your own language, I swear. Like, just please don’t listen to me when I try to correct you. So it, letting, letting that go, letting go, delegating huge. If you can learn to delegate, you are so golden. You find people that you trust and delegate the things that you don’t need to be doing. You do not need to do it all. And in fact, if you try, you will burn out quicker than anything else and your family won’t see you for dinner and you’ll, you’ll get very discouraged over.

Davina Frederick: So those are just some of the things, this is one of the things that the healthy clients, I, I actually say it’s ridiculous to think that we’re actually the best person for every job out there. I mean, yeah, I mean it’s really ridiculous when you think that, I mean, you know, like things that we attorneys do is we think, well, if I just had enough time, I could see my right, I can do every single job there is to it really well too. Yeah. I am really the best person for every job out there. I mean, how silly is that, right? Like, yeah, it bookkeeping, no way. No way am I the best person to keep my, yeah. Oh yeah.

Heather Keith, Esq.: It was real. I mean, attorneys are notorious control freaks and I’m among them. I didn’t know, I didn’t realize that until I started doing my own thing and I had to let go of some things as a solo, it was no, because you are the show, right? But once you start growing, like if that letting go, you have to practice that over and over and over again because the struggle is real to just reel it all back in and say, no, no, no, no, no. Let me do it. Let me do it. Let me do it. I can do this better. I can do it faster. I can do it. Whatever. Don’t do that to yourself. Somebody does it for you. Let somebody do it. That’s how you build a strong team and then appreciate them for it. Then you build a strong team and then you can go on vacation. You know, that’s, there’s a lot between here and there, but, but yeah, absolutely appreciate your teams and hire great rock star people. And if people are not working for you [inaudible] and find that. Yup. Yeah. In the next rock star, you have to surround yourself with rock stars, period.

Davina Frederick: And if you have hiring secrets.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Well, what I think is my best advice on that is, is the ask itself. So it’s, it’s the ad, right? So, I guess you can find people from word of mouth and that’s okay, but, but what I really want to do is I want to put an ad out there and the ad is gonna I don’t pay for my ads. I do them if I can say this on, on a free platform. Very Fun, a very famous free platform anyway. But it’s the, it’s the content. You, you have to, you have to market yourself, right? You have to market that experience that you expect that person to have to the person that you want in a way that is going to resonate with them and cause them to send you their resume. And I know that since it seems like kind of, you know, sort of far out, but it’s the same thing as finding a client.

You need to imagine who, who are you looking for? What do they look like? Where do they live? What are they like? What do they value? Do they want to make money? If they want to make money, then you’re going to incentivize them by bonuses. If they want to just, you know, serve people, then you’re going to give them, maybe give them a different kind of client when they get here, but what is it that you’re looking for? Whether it’s a lawyer or whether it’s an administrative person, you have to have it solid in your mind. What is it that you’re looking for? What are the attributes of this person and if this person were in the room with you and you wanted them to come over and eat lunch with you, what would you say to them? What? What is it that would resonate with them?

What are they looking for? What, what you have to, because they’re going to be looking for something to change that’s better than where they are right now. So then you, your advertisement needs to speak to them directly and emotionally and it, the advertisements should set itself apart from other ads because you’re seeing them all the time. Yeah. We’re looking for an experienced family law attorney, five to eight years commensurate with it, you know, salary, come on, start with experience, Dah, Dah, Dah. Well, that’s not very compelling, right? Is it something that’s compelling is, boy, do I have, hey, are you feeling abused by your boss? Hey, are you feeling ignored by the partner? Hey, do you feel like you’re locked in a cubicle and you never get to court? But do you feel, you know, your litigation rock star and you just haven’t had a chance to prove yourself?

Well then boy, do we have an opportunity for you? Come on over to here and then describe what you have. But, but the first step to that is knowing in your, in your sort of heart of hearts, what exactly who you’re talking to, who is it that you’re trying to attract? So that’s, that’s that, that’s my sort of hiring tip. And then you got to interview them. Of course. I had one where I actually did an assessment as well. There, there are certain assessment tests out there that you can get, that you can give and this is kind of a scary thing as an employer to say, oh yeah, I’m going to have you take an assessment as a condition of me considering you as a candidate. But at the end of the day, it gave me a richer understanding of this candidate, whether, whether at the end of the day we thought this candidate would be successful or not, and this candidate who ultimately was not successful, we knew exactly why that person was not successful. And we’re not surprised at the timing and the reasons that the person ultimately didn’t stay at the firm. So, eh, those, those are just a couple of tips that I can think.

Davina Frederick: Yeah, that’s excellent advice. And I love the idea with the ad and making it unique and really selling it. I used to, in another life I worked with, I worked for a large law firm in marketing. And their strategy when it came to recruiting associates was two. They would do, I had a summer clerk program and they, their strategy was to make these candidates just fall in love with them over the summer. And so they all just, all these summer clerks just loved them and they couldn’t wait. They weren’t, they so badly wanted to work with this firm and they said, that’s our plan is we want all of them fall in love with us so that we have our pick then which one that we want, which one? We want you, that’s what you want to do with your age when you’re, you know, you want them to, you want them to walk. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Your pick. Right. You and so that’s your, your ad strategy is to, to make that, you know, so, so they’re salivating to come work with you.

Heather Keith, Esq.: Yeah. Yep. It’s like a bias.

Davina Frederick: Yes. It is. That you get to pick from. Right and the personality of the, you know, using those disc profiles or Colby or whatever it is that you choose, it’s a great way to see if they’re going to be a good fit for your team and for the type of job that you’re looking your work truly, truly. Yep. So, where this has been great, this been a great interview with lots of good information. Where can we find out more about Keith Family Law?

Heather Keith, Esq.:  Well, the easiest places to point your browser, right, to a That’s where we, that’s where our online presence is in terms of a website. And of course we’re on social media so you can find us on Facebook, you can find us on LinkedIn. I think there’s a Twitter thing out there. A, my marketing person is all in charge of that. So I’m trusted to talk and you can say, you can reach out to us and sign up for our newsletter too. So if you wanted to go to the website and just, you know, send us, there’s a form, you know, there’s a quick form in there. You just want to give us your email. And we’ll, we’ll put you on the mailing list for the email newsletter.

Davina Frederick: Great. Any final thoughts that you want to leave us with today or share about?

Heather Keith, Esq.: Sure. I would just encourage anyone if it’s in your mind to go front. First of all, anyone out there who’s doing it is doing a solo. Congratulations. You have my total props. That’s, that’s the bravest thing in the world to do. And then the next step deck after that is if it’s in your mind to grow, do it. If it’s in your mind to grow, it’s essentially, it’s in the universe already. Yyou have the ability to go out there and do your thing and you will make the bet the world a better place for having done that. That’s my final thought.


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